Politica
  • Reformism *

Page 1 of 11 *1* 2
CyM's Avatar <member.php?u=8932>
Elected Admin,IMT Comrade

Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,506
CyM is on a distinguished road

Default


I have a friend who worked a really shitty textile factory job for a
long time. Then, the company started talking about shutting them down.

I suppose supporting them in their fight for wages, hours and
conditions, and to keep their jobs, is not revolutionary?

I agree that we should take a clear stand against allowing reformists
membership, but ignoring the day to day struggle is not revolutionary.
Revolutionary demands only become conceivable to the working class when
it becomes clear to them that even the most elementary demands cannot be
achieved under the constraints of Capitalism. The role of the Marxists
in the movement is to march side by side with workers in their
struggles, supporting their daily battles even for the basic issues like
wages, and push forward more radical demands and ideas. Pushing for free
education and healthcare, while making it clear that we don't think it's
possible under Capitalism for example. Workers learn, through their
fights, and an ounce of practice is worth a tonne of theory. They will,
and they do, come to the right conclusions as they see how even the
minor struggles cannot be won without going all the way.

That's the only role reforms can have. And that's the way forward for
revolutionary leftists, not placing yourself out in the middle of
nowhere without any support whatsoever shouting like a madman.
______
#*2* <showpost.php?p=601210&postcount=2>
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's Avatar <member.php?u=9903>
Junior Revolutionary

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 287
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog is on a distinguished road

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by Che y Marijuana/@Dec 22 2005, 08:32 AM

  • I have a friend who worked a really shitty textile factory job for a

long time. Then, the company started talking about shutting them down.

I suppose supporting them in their fight for wages, hours and
conditions, and to keep their jobs, is not revolutionary?

I agree that we should take a clear stand against allowing reformists
membership, but ignoring the day to day struggle is not revolutionary.
Revolutionary demands only become conceivable to the working class when
it becomes clear to them that even the most elementary demands cannot be
achieved under the constraints of Capitalism. The role of the Marxists
in the movement is to march side by side with workers in their
struggles, supporting their daily battles even for the basic issues like
wages, and push forward more radical demands and ideas. Pushing for free
education and healthcare, while making it clear that we don't think it's
possible under Capitalism for example. Workers learn, through their
fights, and an ounce of practice is worth a tonne of theory. They will,
and they do, come to the right conclusions as they see how even the
minor struggles cannot be won without going all the way.

That's the only role reforms can have. And that's the way forward for
revolutionary leftists, not placing yourself out in the middle of
nowhere without any support whatsoever shouting like a madman. *

Exactly…great post.
______
If we workers take a notion, we can stop all speeding trains
Every bump upon the ocean, we can tie with mighty chains

Every wheel in the creation, every mine and every mill
Fleets and armies of all nations will at our command stand still

(Joe Hill, Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) 1879-1915)

http://www.offensief.nl <http://\'http://www.offensief.nl\'>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601210> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601210> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601210> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601210>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601210&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
View Public Profile <member.php?u=9903>
Send a private message to RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<private.php?do=newpm&u=9903>
Visit RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's homepage! <http://www.offensief.nl>
Find all posts by RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<search.php?do=finduser&u=9903>
Add RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=9903>

#*3* <showpost.php?p=601227&postcount=3> Add to redstar2000's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=601227> Report Post <report.php?p=601227>
Old 22nd December 2005, 11:26
redstar2000's Avatar <member.php?u=15530>
redstar2000 <member.php?u=15530> redstar2000 is offline
Committed Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: U$A
Posts: 12,171
Blog Entries: 2 <blog.php?u=15530>
Latest Blog Entry: The train system in the US, 1969 <blog.php?b=78>
redstar2000 will become famous soon enough

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by Che y Marijuana/
*I have a friend who worked a really shitty textile factory job for a
long time. Then, the company started talking about shutting them down.

I suppose supporting them in their fight for wages, hours and
conditions, and to keep their jobs, is not revolutionary?*

Not a bit.

/We support your heroic struggle to stay in the shit!/

Of course, people always like you when you support them. So if you're
just "trying to make friends", that's a good way to do it.

But it has nothing to do with revolution at all…not even remotely.

Now, *if* you were in a position to tell those people *why* that factory
was closing down…you might communicate to them a useful message of
*how capitalism works.*

That would be, in a very small way, a revolutionary act. At this point
in time, anything that reinforces proletarian *cynicism* about their
masters is helpful.

And that factory *is going to close*…and nothing you nor any of those
workers say or do is going to change that.

Indeed, telling people these days to "mobilize" for a "great struggle"
to "save their jobs" is just setting them up for a big disappointment.

Instead, tell them *the truth.* Capitalism is going to *fuck you!*

Quote:
*Pushing for free education and healthcare, while making it clear that
we don't think it's possible under Capitalism for example.*

That's called talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

People will conclude, at best, that you are simply *confused*…if they
can make any sense out of such a "mixed message" at all.

Either "free education" is possible under capitalism today or it's not.

If it is possible, then go ahead and fight for it — though it's
certainly a reformist demand…and is entirely irrelevant to any
revolutionary perspective.

If it's not possible (which it isn't, in my opinion), then *tell people
that.*

Tell them *not to waste their time and energy* fighting for something
that is *not possible.*

Tell them that the "age of reform" is *over.*

The bitter truth is far more revolutionary than the pleasant lie.

Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601227> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601227> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601227> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601227>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601227&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

redstar2000
View Public Profile <member.php?u=15530>
Send a private message to redstar2000 <private.php?do=newpm&u=15530>
Visit redstar2000's homepage! <http://www.redstar2000papers.com>
Find all posts by redstar2000 <search.php?do=finduser&u=15530>
Add redstar2000 to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=15530>
View Blog <blog.php?u=15530>

#*4* <showpost.php?p=601243&postcount=4> Add to
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's Reputation <reputation.php?p=601243>
Report Post <report.php?p=601243>
Old 22nd December 2005, 12:31
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's Avatar <member.php?u=9903>
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog <member.php?u=9903>
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog is offline
Junior Revolutionary

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 287
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog is on a distinguished road

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by redstar2000+Dec 22 2005, 12:26 PM—> (redstar2000
@ Dec 22 2005, 12:26 PM)
Quote:
Che y Marijuana

/
Quote:
*I have a friend who worked a really shitty textile factory job for a
long time. Then, the company started talking about shutting them down.

I suppose supporting them in their fight for wages, hours and
conditions, and to keep their jobs, is not revolutionary?*

Not a bit.

/We support your heroic struggle to stay in the shit!/

Of course, people always like you when you support them. So if you're
just "trying to make friends", that's a good way to do it.

But it has nothing to do with revolution at all…not even remotely.

Now, *if* you were in a position to tell those people *why* that factory
was closing down…you might communicate to them a useful message of
*how capitalism works.*

That would be, in a very small way, a revolutionary act. At this point
in time, anything that reinforces proletarian *cynicism* about their
masters is helpful.

And that factory *is going to close*…and nothing you nor any of those
workers say or do is going to change that.

Indeed, telling people these days to "mobilize" for a "great struggle"
to "save their jobs" is just setting them up for a big disappointment.

Instead, tell them *the truth.* Capitalism is going to *fuck you!*

Quote:
*Pushing for free education and healthcare, while making it clear that
we don't think it's possible under Capitalism for example.*

That's called talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time.

People will conclude, at best, that you are simply *confused*…if they
can make any sense out of such a "mixed message" at all.

Either "free education" is possible under capitalism today or it's not.

If it is possible, then go ahead and fight for it — though it's
certainly a reformist demand…and is entirely irrelevant to any
revolutionary perspective.

If it's not possible (which it isn't, in my opinion), then *tell people
that.*

Tell them *not to waste their time and energy* fighting for something
that is *not possible.*

Tell them that the "age of reform" is *over.*

The bitter truth is far more revolutionary than the pleasant lie.

[/b]

Jees…Have you ever heard of a transitional programme? What you are
saying is so sectarian!

Together with the struggle to safeguard and improve the position and
living conditions of workers conscious marxists put forward transitional
demands, such as re-nationalisation of big companies under workers'
control in the form of committees with elected representatives who are
subject to permanent recall and who recieve an average workers wage.

In that way we try to improve the workers' consciousness about why
capitalism should be overthrown and replaced by socialism. Your strategy
is screaming " revolution" when and as loud as you can, without keeping
in mind that consciousness is something that needs to be cultivated and
that the current level of consciousness does not offer the objective
circumstance for a socialist revolution in most countries. Such a
strategy is gonna leave you nothing but being isolated.
______
If we workers take a notion, we can stop all speeding trains
Every bump upon the ocean, we can tie with mighty chains

Every wheel in the creation, every mine and every mill
Fleets and armies of all nations will at our command stand still

(Joe Hill, Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) 1879-1915)

http://www.offensief.nl <http://\'http://www.offensief.nl\'>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601243> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601243> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601243> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601243>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601243&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
View Public Profile <member.php?u=9903>
Send a private message to RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<private.php?do=newpm&u=9903>
Visit RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's homepage! <http://www.offensief.nl>
Find all posts by RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<search.php?do=finduser&u=9903>
Add RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=9903>

#*5* <showpost.php?p=601447&postcount=5> Add to redstar2000's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=601447> Report Post <report.php?p=601447>
Old 22nd December 2005, 19:50
redstar2000's Avatar <member.php?u=15530>
redstar2000 <member.php?u=15530> redstar2000 is offline
Committed Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: U$A
Posts: 12,171
Blog Entries: 2 <blog.php?u=15530>
Latest Blog Entry: The train system in the US, 1969 <blog.php?b=78>
redstar2000 will become famous soon enough

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog/

  • Jees…Have you ever heard of a transitional programme?*

Sure. It's the Trotskyist "magic wand" that turns reformism into
revolution. Unfortunately, no "working model" has ever been
demonstrated. But Trotskyists *really believe* that someday they will
actually come up with a list of "demands" that workers will
enthusiastically embrace…and, as a consequence, magically become
revolutionary.

It's the same old Leninist "primacy of ideas" crap.

Quote:
*What you are saying is so sectarian!*

Why? I'm not saying that CyM should run out and attack other left groups
or deliver an erudite lecture on the history of the 3rd International or
anything else that would normally be associated with sectarianism.

I'm suggesting that he tell people at that factory the truth about their
situation.

Is the truth "sectarian"?

Quote:
*Together with the struggle to safeguard and improve the position and
living conditions of workers conscious marxists put forward transitional
demands, such as re-nationalisation of big companies under workers'
control in the form of committees with elected representatives who are
subject to permanent recall and who receive an average workers wage.*

You're not "marxists", you're just *reformists* full of big promises
that you'll never deliver on.

The only thing you ever accomplish with all that hot air is to make
workers *cynical about Marxism.*

Quote:
*Your strategy is screaming " revolution" when and as loud as you can…*

It is not necessary to "scream"…it's just necessary to tell people the
truth about the situation that they're in. Indeed, a rational
"matter-of-fact" tone might be most suitable in the present
period…might stimulate more interest than Leninist hyperbole.

Quote:
*…without keeping in mind that consciousness is something that needs
to be cultivated…*

Evidently "like a garden"…with the generous application of reformist
manure.

Quote:
*Such a strategy is gonna leave you nothing but being isolated.*

In a period of reaction, even reformists like yourself are "isolated".

Isolation does not relieve revolutionaries of *the obligation to tell
people the truth.*

Reformists wouldn't know the truth if it ran up and bit them in the ass.

Which is what usually happens.

Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601447> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601447> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601447> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601447>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601447&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

redstar2000
View Public Profile <member.php?u=15530>
Send a private message to redstar2000 <private.php?do=newpm&u=15530>
Visit redstar2000's homepage! <http://www.redstar2000papers.com>
Find all posts by redstar2000 <search.php?do=finduser&u=15530>
Add redstar2000 to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=15530>
View Blog <blog.php?u=15530>

#*6* <showpost.php?p=601464&postcount=6> Add to
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's Reputation <reputation.php?p=601464>
Report Post <report.php?p=601464>
Old 22nd December 2005, 20:13
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's Avatar <member.php?u=9903>
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog <member.php?u=9903>
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog is offline
Junior Revolutionary

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 287
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog is on a distinguished road

Default


Quote:
**

  • *

*Quote:*

  • *

/Originally posted by RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog/

  • Jees…Have you ever heard of a transitional programme?*

*Sure. It's the Trotskyist "magic wand" that turns reformism into
revolution. Unfortunately, no "working model" has ever been
demonstrated. But Trotskyists *really believe* that someday they will
actually come up with a list of "demands" that workers will
enthusiastically embrace…and, as a consequence, magically become
revolutionary.*

Oh uh well maybe because Trotsky was killed…..

But if you need an example, take a look at this
<http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxist.net/trotsky/programme/index.html>.

Quote:
**

  • *

*Quote:*

  • *

*What you are saying is so sectarian!*

*Why? I'm not saying that CyM should run out and attack other left
groups or deliver an erudite lecture on the history of the 3rd
International or anything else that would normally be associated with
sectarianism.

I'm suggesting that he tell people at that factory the truth about their
situation.

Is the truth "sectarian"?*

No but the way in which you think you can 'educate the masses' is: it
would only alienate workers from you.

Quote:
*
Quote:
*Together with the struggle to safeguard and improve the position and
living conditions of workers conscious marxists put forward transitional
demands, such as re-nationalisation of big companies under workers'
control in the form of committees with elected representatives who are
subject to permanent recall and who receive an average workers wage.*

You're not "marxists", you're just *reformists* full of big promises
that you'll never deliver on.*

I didn't know marxism consisted of ultra-left sectarianism. :P

Quote:
*The only thing you ever accomplish with all that hot air is to make
workers *cynical about Marxism.*
*

The only thing you will ever accomplish is people no longer willing to
listen to you, since you are unable to stand with two feet on the ground
beside them.

Quote:
*
Quote:
*Such a strategy is gonna leave you nothing but being isolated.*

In a period of reaction, even reformists like yourself are "isolated".

Isolation does not relieve revolutionaries of *the obligation to tell
people the truth.**

Maybe not, but enlarging the level of isolation is not gonna help in
your holy task of spreading the 'truth'.
______
If we workers take a notion, we can stop all speeding trains
Every bump upon the ocean, we can tie with mighty chains

Every wheel in the creation, every mine and every mill
Fleets and armies of all nations will at our command stand still

(Joe Hill, Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) 1879-1915)

http://www.offensief.nl <http://\'http://www.offensief.nl\'>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601464> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601464> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601464> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601464>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601464&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
View Public Profile <member.php?u=9903>
Send a private message to RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<private.php?do=newpm&u=9903>
Visit RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's homepage! <http://www.offensief.nl>
Find all posts by RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<search.php?do=finduser&u=9903>
Add RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=9903>

#*7* <showpost.php?p=601581&postcount=7> Add to CyM's Reputation
<reputation.php?p=601581> Report Post <report.php?p=601581>
Old 22nd December 2005, 22:12
CyM's Avatar <member.php?u=8932>
CyM <member.php?u=8932> CyM is offline
Elected Admin,IMT Comrade

Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,506
CyM is on a distinguished road

Default


I do recall specifically saying to support them in their struggle, while
at the same time explaining clearly how it is connected to the failures
of Capitalism, and how under Capitalism none of those changes can be
achieved in any meaningful way.

But I guess "truthfully explain" means, to redstar at least, tell the
starving worker to eat revolutionary propaganda.

A Marxist who can't do anything for people in the here and now, can't
even bring themselves to support workers in their most basic day to day
struggle for their needs, is worth nothing at all.
______
Dear world, read up on the situation in the early 20th century, and
welcome again to an era of wars, revolutions and counterrevolutions.

*In Defense of Marxism <http://www.marxist.com/> - Socialist Appeal - UK
<http://www.socialist.net/> - Socialist Appeal - USA
<http://www.socialistappeal.org/> - Fightback - Canada
<http://www.marxist.ca/> - Common Front - Montreal
<http://www.commonfront.org/>*

*Join the YFIS Forum* <http://discussion.newyouth.com/>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601581> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601581> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601581> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601581>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601581&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

CyM
View Public Profile <member.php?u=8932>
Send a private message to CyM <private.php?do=newpm&u=8932>
Visit CyM's homepage! <http://www.commonfront.org/>
Find all posts by CyM <search.php?do=finduser&u=8932>
Add CyM to Your Contacts <profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=8932>

#*8* <showpost.php?p=601613&postcount=8> Add to redstar2000's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=601613> Report Post <report.php?p=601613>
Old 22nd December 2005, 22:49
redstar2000's Avatar <member.php?u=15530>
redstar2000 <member.php?u=15530> redstar2000 is offline
Committed Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: U$A
Posts: 12,171
Blog Entries: 2 <blog.php?u=15530>
Latest Blog Entry: The train system in the US, 1969 <blog.php?b=78>
redstar2000 will become famous soon enough

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by Che y Marijuana/
*A Marxist who can't do anything for people in the here and now, can't
even bring themselves to support workers in their most basic day to day
struggle for their needs, is worth nothing at all.*

So…go open a soup kitchen.

Like all reformists, you would have us here believe that "Marxism" is
*social work.*

Nothing wrong with social work for those who like that sort of
thing…you get to feel good about yourself because you're "really
helping people".

It just doesn't have anything to do with Marxism or revolution at all.
You may deny that unpleasant truth…but it's still true.

As you will learn, no doubt.

Leninists have been following your "recipe" for some seven or eight
*decades* in the "west"…and it's been a long time since your
ideological "soup kitchen" actually served any soup.

Even at McDonald's, people eat better.

Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601613> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601613> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601613> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601613>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601613&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

redstar2000
View Public Profile <member.php?u=15530>
Send a private message to redstar2000 <private.php?do=newpm&u=15530>
Visit redstar2000's homepage! <http://www.redstar2000papers.com>
Find all posts by redstar2000 <search.php?do=finduser&u=15530>
Add redstar2000 to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=15530>
View Blog <blog.php?u=15530>

#*9* <showpost.php?p=601895&postcount=9> Add to CyM's Reputation
<reputation.php?p=601895> Report Post <report.php?p=601895>
Old 23rd December 2005, 13:23
CyM's Avatar <member.php?u=8932>
CyM <member.php?u=8932> CyM is offline
Elected Admin,IMT Comrade

Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,506
CyM is on a distinguished road

Default


Union organizing is soup kitchen work?

I guess you think the IWW are Leninists and reformists too then?

I guess you believe that the Spanish revolution was no revolution at all
then, considering that the Anarchist unions responsible for it are
obviously Leninist reformists?

No one is saying that union work *is* the revolution. What I'm saying is
that people only come to revolutionary conclusions through increasingly
intensified and radical conflicts. Before understanding that *all* the
bosses must be fought, and that all workers must fight them together,
they need to understand that *their* boss needs to be fought, and all
the workers at their workplace need to fight him together.

And yes, they can, and often *do*, win that fight on a small scale. If
only temporarily, they win a small victory. That victory emboldens them,
teaches them their power when united. The next time the bosses move,
they meet them quicker and push back harder. They begin to understand
that so long as there are any bosses anywhere, they will always have to
keep fighting to stay alive. They learn that the small victory is not
enough, that they have to work with workers elsewhere, at other
factories to win the battle for all.

General strikes aren't born out of nowhere, they are born of the smaller
battles teaching people what needs to be done, and teaching them that it
can be done.

Our only power against the bosses is the ability to take away theirs.
Their power is the factories only because we let it be, it can be our
power at their expense. But what you're calling for is a flat out
rejection of classwar in favour of nothing but a fight for ideas
disconnected from material reality. Ideas need to spread from
experience. It is the conflict which will lead to revolution, and to
decry the conflict is to destroy any hope of change.
______
Dear world, read up on the situation in the early 20th century, and
welcome again to an era of wars, revolutions and counterrevolutions.

*In Defense of Marxism <http://www.marxist.com/> - Socialist Appeal - UK
<http://www.socialist.net/> - Socialist Appeal - USA
<http://www.socialistappeal.org/> - Fightback - Canada
<http://www.marxist.ca/> - Common Front - Montreal
<http://www.commonfront.org/>*

*Join the YFIS Forum* <http://discussion.newyouth.com/>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601895> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601895> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601895> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601895>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601895&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

CyM
View Public Profile <member.php?u=8932>
Send a private message to CyM <private.php?do=newpm&u=8932>
Visit CyM's homepage! <http://www.commonfront.org/>
Find all posts by CyM <search.php?do=finduser&u=8932>
Add CyM to Your Contacts <profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=8932>

#*10* <showpost.php?p=601957&postcount=10> Add to Luís Henrique's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=601957> Report Post <report.php?p=601957>
Old 23rd December 2005, 15:53
Luís Henrique <member.php?u=10711> Luís Henrique is invisible
Senior Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,191
Luís Henrique has disabled reputation

Default


Quote:
*It's the same old Leninist "primacy of ideas" crap.*

You are the one arguing that revolutionaries should "tell the truth"
instead of partaking working class struggles. It sounds to me that you
are the one incurring in "primacy of ideas"…

Quote:
*I'm suggesting that he tell people at that factory the truth about
their situation.*

Well. I do not know what the metaphysical truth is, but the practical
truth is, our wages are lower than we need.

Perhaps those who are members of a self-elected club of truth-sayers
have the luxury to wonder about Pilates' question, but I am a member of
the working class. If I do not struggle for higher wages, my life
standards fall, whether I am saying the truth or not.

So, let's put the vanguardist sectarianism aside. The "truth" is, wages
are always "unfair", but $2.00 is more than $1.00, and workers that do
not organise for a wage raise will never organise for putting an end to
"wage slavery".

Quote:
*Is the truth "sectarian"?*

Of course. And the belief that we "know" the "truth" is even more sectarian.

Luís Henrique
Edit/Delete Message <editpost.php?do=editpost&p=601957> Reply With Quote
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601957> Multi-Quote This Message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601957> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=601957> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=601957>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=601957&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

Luís Henrique
View Public Profile <member.php?u=10711>
Send a private message to Luís Henrique <private.php?do=newpm&u=10711>
Find all posts by Luís Henrique <search.php?do=finduser&u=10711>
Add Luís Henrique to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=10711>

#*11* <showpost.php?p=602053&postcount=11> Add to redstar2000's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=602053> Report Post <report.php?p=602053>
Old 23rd December 2005, 19:22
redstar2000's Avatar <member.php?u=15530>
redstar2000 <member.php?u=15530> redstar2000 is offline
Committed Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: U$A
Posts: 12,171
Blog Entries: 2 <blog.php?u=15530>
Latest Blog Entry: The train system in the US, 1969 <blog.php?b=78>
redstar2000 will become famous soon enough

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by Che y Marijuana+—> (Che y Marijuana)Union
organizing is soup kitchen work?[/b]/

/

It depends on the organizing campaign, the organizers, the union, and
the "ideological framework" that "sets the tone" of the campaign.

I rather strongly suspect that *most* union work these days *does* have
a "soup kitchen" stink about it.

There may be some exceptions to this…but probably few in number.

Recall that the trade union was the *very first* form of organization
that workers developed to struggle against their capitalist masters. It
goes all the way back to the 1830s, if I'm not mistaken.

For a hundred years or so, it "looked revolutionary". Indeed, the
"syndicalist tradition" in Europe *was explicitly revolutionary* up to,
at least, World War II. Even today in France or Italy (or Quebec?),
trade union work may still be far more explicitly revolutionary than it
is in other countries.

But in the rest of North America?

Perhaps it's time for something "more advanced" than trade unions.

Evidently workers must think so…as the number of unionized workers
continues to decline.

A lot of young workers don't see trade unions as "their organizations"
anymore — they see them as just another alien bureaucracy that seeks to
fuck them over in one way or another.

Not without justification.

/
/ /
/Quote:/
/ /
*What I'm saying is that people only come to revolutionary conclusions
through increasingly intensified and radical conflicts.*

/Yes, that has long been the traditional "theory" of "class
consciousness" in the left.

*Is it true?*

Are workers "inherently incapable" of "abstract reflection" on their
class position? Do they really need to "crawl" before they can "walk"?

And what is the role of those who *tell them* that they "should only
crawl" and that walking is "ultra-left"?

/
/ /
/Quote:/
/ /
*But what you're calling for is a flat out rejection of class war in
favour of nothing but a fight for ideas disconnected from material
reality. Ideas need to spread from experience. It is the conflict which
will lead to revolution, and to decry the conflict is to destroy any
hope of change.*

/It is hyperbolic to call the ritual dance of "capital and labor" /class
war/.

What's really needed are new forms for waging *real class war*…and new
ideas *to match that.*

What Leninism offers, as usual, is just the same old dreary shit.

The working class yawns.

/
/ /
/Quote:/
/ /
Luís Henrique

//
Quote:
*You are the one arguing that revolutionaries should "tell the truth"
instead of partaking [in] working class struggles.*

Not every "working class struggle" is *useful* to revolutionaries.

We should participate in the ones that actually show potential for
advancing revolutionary ideas.

The remainder are, historically speaking, *trivial.*

Quote:
*The "truth" is, wages are always "unfair", but $2.00 is more than
$1.00, and workers that do not organise for a wage raise will never
organise for putting an end to "wage slavery".*

I'm not so sure about that one.

Did all the slaves who "ran away" do so only after first humbly
petitioning their masters for a modest increase in their food rations?

Quote:
*And the belief that we "know" the "truth" is even more sectarian.*

As you wish. If you think that we are "hopelessly ignorant" or perhaps
that the truth is "unknowable", then I find it difficult to understand
how you manage to find your way to work every morning…much less ask
for a raise.

I think humans learn the truth about their objective reality over
time…and then communicate what they've learned to other humans.

Of course, we are often mistaken…but outright lying is held in
universal contempt.

Telling people that "something good can be done" about a situation that
we *know* will only get worse *is lying.*

Sincere reformists *really believe* what they're saying…so they're
just wrong, not liars.

"Marxists" who *echo reformism* are indeed *liars.* Or, if you prefer,
they *are reformists* who just have a sentimental attachment to
"Marxist" terminology.

Either way, they're not worth the attention of revolutionaries…except
to attack whatever their latest fashionable nonsense might be.

Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602053> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602053> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602053> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=602053>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=602053&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

redstar2000
View Public Profile <member.php?u=15530>
Send a private message to redstar2000 <private.php?do=newpm&u=15530>
Visit redstar2000's homepage! <http://www.redstar2000papers.com>
Find all posts by redstar2000 <search.php?do=finduser&u=15530>
Add redstar2000 to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=15530>
View Blog <blog.php?u=15530>

#*12* <showpost.php?p=602704&postcount=12> Add to CyM's Reputation
<reputation.php?p=602704> Report Post <report.php?p=602704>
Old 25th December 2005, 13:42
CyM's Avatar <member.php?u=8932>
CyM <member.php?u=8932> CyM is offline
Elected Admin,IMT Comrade

Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,506
CyM is on a distinguished road

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by redstar2000/@Dec 23 2005, 04:22 PM

  • Yes, that has long been the traditional "theory" of "class

consciousness" in the left.

*Is it true?*

Are workers "inherently incapable" of "abstract reflection" on their
class position? Do they really need to "crawl" before they can "walk"?

And what is the role of those who *tell them* that they "should only
crawl" and that walking is "ultra-left"? *

<_<

This is the difference between materialism and idealism. Ideas don't
fall out of the sky like a holy stone of commandments, unconnected to
anything. They don't just spring forth out of thin air. They are a
product of material conditions, experiences, etc… Yes, some people
reach the right conclusions with need for fewer experiences, others need
more individual experiences to draw the generalizations from them. The
reality is, if you want a revolution, you can't rely on a small handful
of advanced workers only. You need the mass of workers to reach those
conclusions and take their lives into their own hands.

If it was just a matter of them being exposed to the ideas, then the
revolution would have been won long ago. Clearly, the ideas mean nothing
if not connected to our everyday experience.

Every revolution has shown that the disconnected struggles of individual
workers reach a critical point where they connect and it is at that
point where there is a potential for radical ideas to gain a following,
not just at any point in the development of the conditions.

Quote:
*It is hyperbolic to call the ritual dance of "capital and labor" /class
war/.*

You've been seperated too long if you truly believe it is *anything but*
a war.

Quote:
*What's really needed are new forms for waging *real class war*…and
new ideas *to match that.**

Again, we don't create new ideas where there is no material need for
them. The battle lines are drawn and our aims are clear, end wage
slavery and bring the control of the economy into a democratic regime of
the working class to the exclusion of all other classes.

If we are not going to change our goals, then how can we just randomly
change our methods? Our methods must flow from both our goals and the
conditions today. The conditions are that we have a working class waging
war with its bosses, if they are to win, they must be organized and
united. What method beyond unions are open to us?

Workers' organizations, united, and armed with the ideas of Marxism are
the only way forward. We can't just say "we need another way" and leave
the rest to chance. We can't abandon what we have (and what is working,
despite your assertions otherwise), if we have no alternative.

Quote:
*Not every "working class struggle" is *useful* to revolutionaries.

We should participate in the ones that actually show potential for
advancing revolutionary ideas.

The remainder are, historically speaking, *trivial.**

Do you know the struggles, the trivial events, that led to the Paris
Commune? Or how about the ones that toppled the Czar's regime? You can't
expect workers to just one day wake up and say "let's topple the
government and establish soviets", those "trivialities" are a necessary
part of the road to advanced class consciousness. Would you call *your*
first political activities important? Of course not, they were frivolous
and generally meaningless, more so than a struggle for wages, same as my
first steps. But we learned from them, and we set our sights higher. To
expect people to learn any differently, to skip the human process of
trial and error, is idealism at its worst.

But fear not, there are moments when people's consciousness doesn't take
such a slow route, and they learn in days what generally takes years.
Unfortunately for you, that happens to be the explosion of clture and
human potential when a revolution is already blooming.

Quote:
*I'm not so sure about that one.

Did all the slaves who "ran away" do so only after first humbly
petitioning their masters for a modest increase in their food rations?*

Do you really think that every slave just woke up one day and decided to
run? It's only reasonable to assume that there was alot of abuse, and
the will to fight it, before the will to run.

But that's not the real question is it. The comparison here is that
before slavery could be overturned, individual slaves had to escape one
by one until the struggle could be generalised through the railway. So
for wage slavery to end, every wage slave needs to fight their
"frivolous" fights before they can unite those fights together to tackle
the greater threat of wage slavery as a whole.

Quote:
*Of course, we are often mistaken…but outright lying is held in
universal contempt.

Telling people that "something good can be done" about a situation that
we *know* will only get worse *is lying.**

But we know precisely the opposite. We know for a fact that just
standing by and arguing Marxist history, instead of applying Marxist
practice, leads to a weakened working class. A class without
organization and unity, a class without any backbone that does not rise
to the occasion when the battle is called, is an impotent class that
will be stripped of all of its rights one by one.

Without actively fighting the ruling class, nationalized healthcare
would have never been implemented. Today we are at that point where the
bosses feel workers have abandoned the unions enough for them to be able
to shut those systems down, but instead they are seeing general strikes
appearing, and a reinvigoration of the struggle. If the workers win this
struggle, the will be emboldened. Victories such as these show the way,
teach workers just how much power they hold in their hands when united,
and teach them that they *can* do things better than the bosses.

Quote:
*"Marxists" who *echo reformism* are indeed *liars.* Or, if you prefer,
they *are reformists* who just have a sentimental attachment to
"Marxist" terminology.*

I suppose that's a serious accusation, coming from someone calling for
an end to class struggle, the abolition of the unions, and suffering
from a serious god complex: "let there be revolution", and so there was,
out of nowhere.

Quote:
*Either way, they're not worth the attention of revolutionaries…except
to attack whatever their latest fashionable nonsense might be.*

While sectarians declare the struggles of the working class to be
unworthy of their attention, the working class is on the move across the
world, with a revolution in Venezuela where workers have created a South
American federation of "reclaimed factories" and have put workers'
control firmly on the agenda yet again. It is the working class who
cannot be bothered with the criticisms from the sidelines.

What have the sectarians achieved?
______
Dear world, read up on the situation in the early 20th century, and
welcome again to an era of wars, revolutions and counterrevolutions.

*In Defense of Marxism <http://www.marxist.com/> - Socialist Appeal - UK
<http://www.socialist.net/> - Socialist Appeal - USA
<http://www.socialistappeal.org/> - Fightback - Canada
<http://www.marxist.ca/> - Common Front - Montreal
<http://www.commonfront.org/>*

*Join the YFIS Forum* <http://discussion.newyouth.com/>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602704> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602704> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602704> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=602704>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=602704&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

CyM
View Public Profile <member.php?u=8932>
Send a private message to CyM <private.php?do=newpm&u=8932>
Visit CyM's homepage! <http://www.commonfront.org/>
Find all posts by CyM <search.php?do=finduser&u=8932>
Add CyM to Your Contacts <profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=8932>

#*13* <showpost.php?p=602763&postcount=13> Add to redstar2000's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=602763> Report Post <report.php?p=602763>
Old 25th December 2005, 17:51
redstar2000's Avatar <member.php?u=15530>
redstar2000 <member.php?u=15530> redstar2000 is offline
Committed Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: U$A
Posts: 12,171
Blog Entries: 2 <blog.php?u=15530>
Latest Blog Entry: The train system in the US, 1969 <blog.php?b=78>
redstar2000 will become famous soon enough

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by Che y Marijuana/
*If it was just a matter of them being exposed to the ideas, then the
revolution would have been won long ago.*

Is that true?

Well, first of all, how many working class people have *ever* been
exposed *at all* to the idea that workers are a *class* who *could rule?*

I mean this *excludes* all the Leninist parties, for example. All they
ever tell working people these days is /follow me and I'll set you free/.

They invite working people to *choose them for their new bosses* because
they'll be "better" than the bosses that exist now.

Not exactly a "sexy" appeal.

The groups that *have* advocated working class revolution in a clear and
unmistakable way are few in number, very small, and probably have not
reached any significant numbers of workers even with a single leaflet or
poster.

Secondly, a historical materialist approach to revolution yields the
inescapable conclusion that workers make revolution *only* when they
perceive it is in their material interests to do so.

Insofar as capitalism still "works" for most working people, revolution
is not "on the table" in our era.

This clearly *enhances* the "appeal" of *reformism* to the well-meaning.
It's something "we can do right now".

And we "all know" that the "struggle" for reforms "leads to"
revolutionary class consciousness.

Well no, I don't "know that" at all.

In fact, history suggests rather the *opposite.* The "struggle" for
reforms leads to the corruption of the reformers and the demoralization
of the working class as a whole.

This is especially the case over the last few decades or so. In my
opinion, the "age of reform" is *over.* In fact, the existing reforms
will be severely weakened or entirely dismantled over the next
half-century…at least everything points in that direction.

If we look at "reform struggles" in the "western" world, we can't help
but notice their *defensive character.*

A sense of "impending defeat" is not going to do much for revolutionary
class consciousness, in my opinion.

Quote:
*While sectarians declare the struggles of the working class to be
unworthy of their attention, the working class is on the move across the
world, with a revolution in Venezuela where workers have created a South
American federation of "reclaimed factories" and have put workers'
control firmly on the agenda yet again.*

"Workers' control" in *capitalist Venezuela?*

Since "Marxist" reformists are no longer capable of achieving any *real
victories*, they must perforce cloak whatever they do manage to
accomplish in the *costumes of "victory".*

Thus the Venezuelan "New Deal" is "dialectically transformed" into "a
revolution".

Without all that tedious stuff involving proletarian insurrection,
smashing the old bourgeois state, building up organs of proletarian
power, etc.

Just locate a "Napoleonic" ex-general and put him in charge…and things
will work out "just fine".

/Break out the champaign!/

Quote:
*What have the sectarians achieved?*

Nothing of any significance. We're still trying to figure out what is
worth "achieving" under the despotism of capital.

And our numbers are still so small that practical activity is perforce
quite marginal at this point.

Making us an "easy target" for our critics.

On the other hand, we haven't *lied to anyone.*

We have never told people that they could "achieve" things that cannot
be achieved under late capitalism. We've never promised them a
"benevolent" despotism. We've never suggested that parliamentary
cretinism is the "road to liberation"…or that superstition can be
"progressive".

In short, we have not *added* to the sum total of *bullshit* that
pollutes the planet.

In fact, we've even done a tiny bit to subtract from that total.

And we "ultra-left sectarians" will do more in the coming
decades…always with the explicit purpose of encouraging proletarian
resistance to the despotism of capital and always with the explicit goal
of proletarian revolution.

/But you can't *do* that!/

Yes we can.

Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602763> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602763> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602763> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=602763>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=602763&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

redstar2000
View Public Profile <member.php?u=15530>
Send a private message to redstar2000 <private.php?do=newpm&u=15530>
Visit redstar2000's homepage! <http://www.redstar2000papers.com>
Find all posts by redstar2000 <search.php?do=finduser&u=15530>
Add redstar2000 to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=15530>
View Blog <blog.php?u=15530>

#*14* <showpost.php?p=602943&postcount=14> Add to cormacobear's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=602943> Report Post <report.php?p=602943>
Old 26th December 2005, 07:13
cormacobear <member.php?u=9456> cormacobear is offline
Reactionary
*Restricted*

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Posts: 1,067
cormacobear is on a distinguished road
Send a message via MSN to cormacobear <#>

Default


Red Star almost has me convinced but he's not yet been willing condemn
working with other leftists on issues of shared concern, since that
gives us the oppertunity to influence other leftists to be more
revolutionary.
______
&quot;One who is commited to the poor must run the same fate as the poor
and in El Salvador we know what the fate of the poor signifies; To
dissapear, to be tortured, to be captive-and to be found Dead.&quot;
Father Oscar Romero Socialist Martyr

One of them Blog thingies:
http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/blogs/cormacobear
<http://\'http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/blogs/cormacobear\'>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602943> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602943> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602943> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=602943>

cormacobear
View Public Profile <member.php?u=9456>
Send a private message to cormacobear <private.php?do=newpm&u=9456>
Find all posts by cormacobear <search.php?do=finduser&u=9456>
Add cormacobear to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=9456>

#*15* <showpost.php?p=602962&postcount=15> Add to encephalon's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=602962> Report Post <report.php?p=602962>
Old 26th December 2005, 07:59
encephalon <member.php?u=9900> encephalon is offline
Senior Revolutionary

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,680
encephalon is on a distinguished road

Default


Among others here (including some that call for reformist restriction),
I am of the opinion that capitalism has not yet played itself out and
that a socialist or anarchist society is not possible with today's
current mode of production. This translates to a benign support of
capitalism in the sense that it is a resignation to the forces of
history and the necessity of conditions that lead to revolution.

As such, I think gains made by the working class within the bourgeoisie
dictatorship are a good thing (that is, when there aren't strings
attached, which is rare). I do support bourgeoisie organizations such as
the ACLU that attempt to prevent capitalism from regressing rather than
progressing (although some of their assertions are frankly ridiculous).
I also support groups that affect the direction of technology and the
means of production, such as linux workshops; while these might at first
don't seem at all to be political organizations, we should all know by
now that political interests pervade all parties, especially those
concerned with production.

Is this reformism? The only way I can see it being construed as such is
by a strict adherence to Dialectical procedure, where everything moves
forward no matter what happens. I simply find this false; indeed, the
conditions for communism must be built by capitalism, but it will not
automatically happen on its own (although some will disagree with me).

Granted, I also agree that participation in bourgeoisie electoral
systems is fruitless to a large degree; but I think clarification needs
to be made between those reformists that assert capitalism can be molded
into a worker-friendly world and those who reject capitalism but find it
necessary to influence it in degrees that are most agreeable to the
establishment of a communist, socialist, anarchist or otherwise
left-based society.

If no clarification is made, then any of us who actively support any
bourgeoisie organization to date can be considered reformist, and I
would suspect that most if not all CC members can be found guilty as
such with enough information regarding their personal life.

I short: if "reformist" means those that believe capitalism can be
changed without revolution for the ultimate benefit of society, then I
agree; but if it means anyone who supports any bourgeoisie organization
at any point in time, then I wholly disagree. To support the latter
while still under the throes of capitalism would be suicide.
______
<span style=\'color:red\'>The man who has got everything he wants is all
in favor of peace and order.</span> -* Jawaharlal Nehru*
<span style=\'color:red\'>The distinguishing sign of slavery is to have
a price, and to be bought for it.</span> -* John Ruskin*


Red Apollo — Anti-establishment, anti-authoritarian arts and projects
<http:\'http://www.redapollo.org\'> <span style=\'color:red\'>*New and
improved! :P*</span>
The Red Wiki <http:
\'http://www.redapollo.org/wiki/\'>
Mutiny At Sector Five — revolutionary politics and adventure game
<http:\'http://sector5.redapollo.org/\'>
Make your own Commie Comic! <http:
\'http://commix.redapollo.org/\'>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602962> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602962> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=602962> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=602962>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=602962&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

encephalon
View Public Profile <member.php?u=9900>
Send a private message to encephalon <private.php?do=newpm&u=9900>
Visit encephalon's homepage! <http://www.redapollo.org>
Find all posts by encephalon <search.php?do=finduser&u=9900>
Add encephalon to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=9900>

#*16* <showpost.php?p=603063&postcount=16> Add to redstar2000's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=603063> Report Post <report.php?p=603063>
Old 26th December 2005, 15:39
redstar2000's Avatar <member.php?u=15530>
redstar2000 <member.php?u=15530> redstar2000 is offline
Committed Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: U$A
Posts: 12,171
Blog Entries: 2 <blog.php?u=15530>
Latest Blog Entry: The train system in the US, 1969 <blog.php?b=78>
redstar2000 will become famous soon enough

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by cormacobear+—> (cormacobear)Red Star almost has
me convinced but he's not yet been willing condemn working with other
leftists on issues of shared concern, since that gives us the
opportunity to influence other leftists to be more revolutionary.[/b]/

/

I think you mistake my meaning…or I yours.

A few weeks ago, someone posted a message about taking part in the RCP's
"World Can't Wait" campaign.

My reply was: if you think it's useful, go right ahead…*but make your
own sign.*

I am not, in other words, "opposed in principle" to the idea of working
with groups that don't necessarily agree with me.

It depends a lot on what the issue is — does it point in the direction
that I think things ought to go?

And it depends on how free I am to put forward my own "line"? Can I say
*what I really think?*

And this is my advice to all of you. By all means work with different
groups if you think the issue in and of itself will radicalize people —
move them towards a revolutionary perspective — *and* if you are free
to actually articulate a revolutionary perspective.

For example, I think that *police brutality* and *prison conditions* are
"good issues" for the "ultra-left" to work on. True, they are
"reformist" in the sense that little real improvement can be reasonably
expected.

But they *expose* people to the *harsh realities* of capitalist *despotism.*

And I think that has the potential to profoundly *radicalize people.* It
may not necessarily "make" people into revolutionaries…but it will
hopefully nurture a *bitter contempt* for the prevailing social order —
one that will be passed on to children and grandchildren.

Quote:
encephalon

/
Quote:
*I do support bourgeois organizations such as the ACLU that attempt to
prevent capitalism from regressing rather than progressing (although
some of their assertions are frankly ridiculous).*

I don't think that's necessarily harmful…as long as you don't spread
the illusion (or fall victim to it yourself) that the ACLU can "stop
fascism" in the "courts".

The truth is, they're actually "not very good" at what they purport to
"do"…I've actually seen some ACLU legal briefs and they are "wimpy" if
not downright "lame".

You might want to have a look at these folks…

Center for Constitutional Rights
<http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/home.asp>

They *seem* to be considerably more aggressive than the ACLU.

Quote:
*I also support groups that affect the direction of technology and the
means of production, such as linux workshops; while these might at first
don't seem at all to be political organizations, we should all know by
now that political interests pervade all parties, especially those
concerned with production.*

This kind of work could actually turn out to be revolutionary without a
single "revolutionary word" ever being spoken.

If the people working on linux ever developed a genuinely "user
friendly" version of their operating system, it could have a *very*
dramatic effect on the global capitalist system.

It would be an actual living example that we could all point to and say:
/see…communism works *better!*/

Quote:
*I think clarification needs to be made between those reformists that
assert capitalism can be molded into a worker-friendly world and those
who reject capitalism but find it necessary to influence it in degrees
that are most agreeable to the establishment of a communist, socialist,
anarchist or otherwise left-based society.*

The problem here is always (or nearly always) trying to see "inside
someone's head".

There are still *all too many* people around who "know all the
revolutionary buzz words" and can easily summon them up on appropriate
(ceremonial) occasions.

Indeed, the Leninist parties in the last century developed a *massive
vocabulary* to cloak reformism in "revolutionary" costumes.

One way to "solve" this dilemma is to pay careful attention to what
these people say *to the general public* (instead of just what they say
when they're arguing with other lefties).

Sure, they can tell *us* that they "support revolution" in the "long
run". But if you look at what they're telling ordinary working people,
you'll discover their *real* "outlook" on things.

*Reformism!* :angry:

What they really want is not revolution; they want to be *popular.* And
they ain't real "picky" about what they're willing to say to "be more
popular" either.

Consider the various proponents of "market socialism", for example. The
"utility" of the "free market" is presently *fashionable* in the
bourgeois media and among bourgeois academics…so these "socialists"
just *jump right on the bandwagon.*

If pressed by their "ultra-left" critics, they can always quote Lenin on
the "New Economic Policy".

And so it goes and may well continue to go for quite a while. We who
want to develop a real revolutionary perspective in this century "have
our work cut out for us."

Nobody said this stuff would be "easy".

Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603063> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603063> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603063> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=603063>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=603063&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

redstar2000
View Public Profile <member.php?u=15530>
Send a private message to redstar2000 <private.php?do=newpm&u=15530>
Visit redstar2000's homepage! <http://www.redstar2000papers.com>
Find all posts by redstar2000 <search.php?do=finduser&u=15530>
Add redstar2000 to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=15530>
View Blog <blog.php?u=15530>

#*17* <showpost.php?p=603118&postcount=17> Add to Luís Henrique's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=603118> Report Post <report.php?p=603118>
Old 26th December 2005, 17:31
Luís Henrique <member.php?u=10711> Luís Henrique is invisible
Senior Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,191
Luís Henrique has disabled reputation

Default


Quote:
*Did all the slaves who "ran away" do so only after first humbly
petitioning their masters for a modest increase in their food rations?*

See, I have no qualms about rhetorics. Rhetorics are great if we wish to
make a point.

So, the rhetorical expression "wage slavery" is very useful: it may open
people's eyes to the fact that the conditions in our modern, civilised,
post-historical capitalist world are not those parroted by the capital
apologists.

*But*, rhetorics have no heuristical value. If we start using the
analogies between wage slavery and chattel slavery as a tool to further
understand either one, we are on the wrong track.

Which is to say, tactics that may work for those who need to fight
chattel slavery might not be useful for those who have to fight wage
slavery. And vice-versa.

There is a fundamental difference between chattel slavery and wage
slavery. The latter is based upon the assumption that exploitation is a
free contract between capitalist and worker. As such, it must recognise
a juridical personality to the worker. Which means agreements between
workers and capitalists are within the frame of the legal system. /Pacta
sunt servanda/. Of course, the employers will always forget this, and
betray their deals with workers. But they can only do this at the
expense of their own credibility; nay, more, they can only do this at
the expense of the credibility of the capitalist system. Each time they
do it, they tear the Maia veil of bourgeois ideology.

Slavery sans phrase has other problems, but not this one. Slaves are not
juridically
persons. A pact between slave and slaveowner is void; the slaveowners
can break it at will without harming their ideology; on the contrary,
they reinforce their ideology by breaking it.

So these are inherently different situations, that cannot be equated
just because we use, for rhetorical purposes, the same word to describe
both.

Quote:
*As you wish. If you think that we are "hopelessly ignorant" or perhaps
that the truth is "unknowable", then I find it difficult to understand
how you manage to find your way to work every morning…much less ask
for a raise.*

There is a huge difference between knowing "true facts" - like my way to
work - and knowing "the truth". So to put it clearly, I know my way to
work; I don't know "truth"; I know that knowing my way to work is not
the same as "knowing the truth".

Luís Henrique
Edit/Delete Message <editpost.php?do=editpost&p=603118> Reply With Quote
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603118> Multi-Quote This Message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603118> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603118> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=603118>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=603118&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

Luís Henrique
View Public Profile <member.php?u=10711>
Send a private message to Luís Henrique <private.php?do=newpm&u=10711>
Find all posts by Luís Henrique <search.php?do=finduser&u=10711>
Add Luís Henrique to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=10711>

#*18* <showpost.php?p=603221&postcount=18> Add to redstar2000's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=603221> Report Post <report.php?p=603221>
Old 26th December 2005, 23:30
redstar2000's Avatar <member.php?u=15530>
redstar2000 <member.php?u=15530> redstar2000 is offline
Committed Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: U$A
Posts: 12,171
Blog Entries: 2 <blog.php?u=15530>
Latest Blog Entry: The train system in the US, 1969 <blog.php?b=78>
redstar2000 will become famous soon enough

Default


Quote:
/Originally posted by Luís Henrique/
*So, the rhetorical expression "wage slavery" is very useful: it may
open people's eyes to the fact that the conditions in our modern,
civilised, post-historical capitalist world are not those parroted by
the capital apologists.*

When Marx first used this phrase, was he just "being rhetorical"…in a
period during which the infamy of chattel slavery in the western
hemisphere was widely publicized.

Or did he *really mean it?*…that wage slavery was the "modern form" of
slave (class) society?

What the two concepts have in common is obvious. Both the chattel slave
and the wage slave *must labor to enrich their master*. They *have no
choice.*

I think this is what Marx was "getting at" when he coined the phrase. A
free person may labor or not as s/he wishes, may choose what s/he labors
at, and may labor either for her/his benefit or that of another as s/he
wishes.

A slave (chattel or wage) *must* labor whenever commanded, at whatever
task set by the master, and solely for the benefit of the master.

In both cases, their *entire lives* are "at the mercy" of their master.

This is the reality that lies beneath all the banalities about "free
labor" under capitalism…which Marx clearly wanted to draw attention to.

Quote:
*Which is to say, tactics that may work for those who need to fight
chattel slavery might not be useful for those who have to fight wage
slavery.*

It seems to me that the main difference between chattel slavery and wage
slavery is *subjective*…wage-slavery doesn't "feel like slavery" to
the wage-slave. They "think they are free"…even though they are not.

They *imagine* that they are "legal persons" with "legal rights"…that
they "cannot" be treated as *mere property.*

The truth, in my opinion, is otherwise. One could find plenty of
historical evidence of the treatment of wage-slaves that hardly differs
in any significant way from the treatment of chattel slaves.

From a *revolutionary* standpoint, I think it is *necessary* to overcome
the "illusion of freedom" that most wage-slaves cling to. I think that
it's when we realize *our objective situation* that we learn "in our
guts" to *hate the master class!*

Granted, that's not an "easy" message to communicate.

It sounds "unreasonable", "intolerant", "dogmatic"…even "sectarian".

Thus I invoke one of my favorite historical parallels…the very
beginnings of American abolitionism in the early 1830s.

Hear the words of William Lloyd Garrison…

/*I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice…I am in
earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a
single inch, and I will be heard.*/

I feel the same way about wage-slavery that Garrison felt about chattel
slavery.

*It must be totally abolished, period!*

I think *that* is the *core revolutionary message now.*

And any reformist here is free to call me any "names" they like.

I will not retreat a single inch!

Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603221> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603221> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603221> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=603221>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=603221&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

redstar2000
View Public Profile <member.php?u=15530>
Send a private message to redstar2000 <private.php?do=newpm&u=15530>
Visit redstar2000's homepage! <http://www.redstar2000papers.com>
Find all posts by redstar2000 <search.php?do=finduser&u=15530>
Add redstar2000 to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=15530>
View Blog <blog.php?u=15530>

#*19* <showpost.php?p=603849&postcount=19> Add to Luís Henrique's
Reputation <reputation.php?p=603849> Report Post <report.php?p=603849>
Old 28th December 2005, 13:31
Luís Henrique <member.php?u=10711> Luís Henrique is invisible
Senior Revolutionary
*Commie Club Member*

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,191
Luís Henrique has disabled reputation

Default


Quote:
*It seems to me that the main difference between chattel slavery and
wage slavery is *subjective*…wage-slavery doesn't "feel like slavery"
to the wage-slave.* They "think they are free"…even though they are not.

They *imagine* that they are "legal persons" with "legal rights"…that
they "cannot" be treated as *mere property.*
*

To an extent, this is true. Hell, this is true even of capitalists: they
believe they are selling Innocent Toys Ltd. stock and buying Deadly
Weapons Inc. because they can, but in fact they are just doing what
capital needs them to do, in order to better reproduce.

In a different level, this is not an illusion - or, perhaps, it is an
illusion that has too many very material consequences. Whatever our
concepts of ultimate freedom are, a slave does not have to choose
between buying a Big Mc or a dish of chinese food. Wage-slaves are
required to do such all the time. Those "choices" are fake, delusional,
meaningless? Well, yes. But, you know, we are what we do. Slaves do not
make choices without immediately breaking the rules; wage-slaves do make
choices all the time, so they learn how to make choices - and this is
what may lead them to choose /which/ choices are meaningful and which
aren't.

If this wasn't true, slavery and wage-slavery would be interchangeable.
Capitalists would be able to revert to slavery at will. They aren't;
there is an unbridgeable chasm between the two forms of exploitation.
OK, "unbridgeable" is an overstatement: there is a bridge between them,
it is called "bourgeois revolution".

Quote:
*From a *revolutionary* standpoint, I think it is *necessary* to
overcome the "illusion of freedom" that most wage-slaves cling to.* I
think that it's when we realize *our objective situation* that we learn
"in our guts" to *hate the master class!**

Certainly. Lenin believed that such "illusions" could only be overcome
by the existence of a vanguard foreign to our class. The petty bourgeois
were to bring to us the pure, abstract knowledge about "our objective
situation". This is, in my opinion, absurd.

We, the working class, will overcome such illusions - and will do so by
wearing them out. Without the practical experience of such illusions,
they cannot be dispelled.

Proof?

When I read you about the difference between chattel slaves and
wage-slaves, I almost sence a "the worst the better" underlying
argument. The chattel slave, at least, is not deluded. He /knows/ he is
a slave!

Unhappily, what is the "freedom" that the chattel slaves seeks? No other
than the "illusion of freedom" in which we, wage-slaves, are drowning!

Take us our union rights, and we will fight for union rights. Take us
the 8 hour journey, and we will fight for… an eight hour journey. We
won't "conclude" that union rights and 8 hour journeys are "mere
reforms". Instead, we will conclude that "freedom" is union rights and 8
hour journeys…

Luís Henrique
Edit/Delete Message <editpost.php?do=editpost&p=603849> Reply With Quote
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603849> Multi-Quote This Message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603849> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603849> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=603849>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=603849&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

Luís Henrique
View Public Profile <member.php?u=10711>
Send a private message to Luís Henrique <private.php?do=newpm&u=10711>
Find all posts by Luís Henrique <search.php?do=finduser&u=10711>
Add Luís Henrique to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=10711>

#*20* <showpost.php?p=603905&postcount=20> Add to
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's Reputation <reputation.php?p=603905>
Report Post <report.php?p=603905>
Old 28th December 2005, 16:08
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's Avatar <member.php?u=9903>
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog <member.php?u=9903>
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog is offline
Junior Revolutionary

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 287
RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog is on a distinguished road

Default


Looking back on the question with which this thread started..I guess
redstar 2000 would have a nice time talking to himself, while the rest
of us 'reformists' on RevLeft were to flood OI *LOL*
______
If we workers take a notion, we can stop all speeding trains
Every bump upon the ocean, we can tie with mighty chains

Every wheel in the creation, every mine and every mill
Fleets and armies of all nations will at our command stand still

(Joe Hill, Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) 1879-1915)

http://www.offensief.nl <http://\'http://www.offensief.nl\'>
Reply With Quote <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603905> Multi-Quote This
Message <newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603905> Quick reply to this message
<newreply.php?do=newreply&p=603905> <blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=603905>
Thanks
<post_thanks.php?do=post_thanks_add&p=603905&securitytoken=1247573330-80dccacc0aad65aebb1cbf2144200d84ec280620>

RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
View Public Profile <member.php?u=9903>
Send a private message to RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<private.php?do=newpm&u=9903>
Visit RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog's homepage! <http://www.offensief.nl>
Find all posts by RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog
<search.php?do=finduser&u=9903>
Add RevolutionarySocialist MadRedDog to Your Contacts
<profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=buddy&u=9903>

Reply <newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=603905>
Page 1 of 11 *1* 2
<reformism-t39648/index2.html?highlight=feudal+societies> 3
<reformism-t39648/index3.html?highlight=feudal+societies> >
<reformism-t39648/index2.html?highlight=feudal+societies> Last *»*
<reformism-t39648/index11.html?highlight=feudal+societies>

Bookmarks

* Submit Thread to Digg
<http://digg.com/submit?phrase=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>
Digg
<http://digg.com/submit?phrase=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>

* Submit Thread to del.icio.us
<http://del.icio.us/post?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>
del.icio.us
<http://del.icio.us/post?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>

* Submit Thread to StumbleUpon
<http://www.stumbleupon.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>
StumbleUpon
<http://www.stumbleupon.com/submit?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>

* Submit Thread to Google
<http://www.google.com/bookmarks/mark?op=edit&output=popup&bkmk=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>
Google
<http://www.google.com/bookmarks/mark?op=edit&output=popup&bkmk=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.revleft.com%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D39648&title=Reformism>

Tags <tags.php>
reformism <tags.php?tag=reformism>

vBulletin Message

Cancel Changes <#>

Quick Reply
The following errors occurred with your submission
Okay <#>
Message:
Remove Text Formatting

Bold

Italic

Underline

Insert Link

Insert Image

Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text

Decrease Size
Increase Size

Switch Editor Mode

Smilies [More <#>]
:) :( :D
;) :laugh: :cool:
:crying: :rolleyes: :blushing:
:confused: :lol: :mellow:
:thumbdown: :tt2: :sneaky:

Options
Quote message in reply?

Posting Quick Reply - Please Wait *Posting Quick Reply - Please Wait*

*«* Previous Thread <showthread.php?t=39648&goto=nextoldest> | Next
Thread <showthread.php?t=39648&goto=nextnewest> *»*

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (1 members and 0 guests)
Luís Henrique <member.php?u=10711>*

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version <printthread.php?t=39648>
Email this Page Email this Page <sendmessage.php?do=sendtofriend&t=39648>
Subscription Subscribe to this Thread
<subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=39648>

Search this Thread

Advanced Search <search.php?searchthreadid=39648>

Rate This Thread
ExcellentExcellent
GoodGood
AverageAverage
BadBad
TerribleTerrible

<#top> Posting Rules
You *may* post new threads
You *may* post replies
You *may* post attachments
You *may* edit your posts


BB code <misc.php?do=bbcode> is *On*
Smilies <misc.php?do=showsmilies> are *On*
[IMG] <misc.php?do=bbcode#imgcode> code is *On*
HTML code is *Off*


Forum Rules <misc.php?do=showrules>

*Forum Jump*
User Control PanelPrivate MessagesSubscriptionsWho's OnlineSearch
ForumsForums Home General Learning… Politics The Iranian
Uprising Worker Struggles History Ernesto "Che" Guevara
Theory Economics Discrimination Philosophy Sciences and
Environment Opposing Ideologies OI Learning Religion
Action Practice & Propaganda Anti-Fascism Upcoming Events
Europe & Africa Asia & Oceania The Americas Resources
Mutual Aid & DIY Research and Online Classes Study Groups
Cultural Literature & Films Music Websites Plastic & Graphic
arts RevLeft International RevLeft's International Language
Discussion Forum Arabic ??/Chinese Español
Français German Nordisk ???????? Nederlands
Theorie Activisme Gebabbel
Russian Turkce Zapadni Balkan Vesti
Diskusije / Akcije Kultura / Istorija Razno Non
Political Introductions Chit Chat Sports & Health Community
Central RevLeft Announcements & News RevLeft Members Forum
CC Nomination Commie Club Membership Votes
Approved Rejected Revolutionary Left Improvement
Mod/Admin Votes CC Policy Approved
Rejected Revleft Groups Polls on Member Status
Passed Failed Technical Support Trash Trashcan Spam
Can Hidden Trashcan

<#top> Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reformism and Voting <reformism-and-voting-t49488/index.html> Dooga
Aetrus Blackrazor Theory 37 23rd August 2006 16:49
Leninism and Reformism <leninism-and-reformism-t43113/index.html> Dooga
Aetrus Blackrazor Theory 82 26th March 2006 06:22
What is Reformism? <reformismi-t41106/index.html> Severian Theory
56 2nd February 2006 22:29
Reformism <reformism-t39308/index.html> Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor
Politics 12 13th December 2005 12:30
Reformism <reformism-t34815/index.html> Invader Zim Theory 28 15th
August 2005 06:56

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:08.

— RevLeft— RevLeft Neutral

  • Contact Us <sendmessage.php> - Archive <archive/> - Top <#top> *

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Zoints SEO v2.3.0 by Zoints <http://zoints.com/> & DxLwebs.com
<http://www.dxlwebs.com/>

Che Guevara Shirts, T-shirts, Tshirts, tees, merchandise
<http://store.che-lives.com>

Unless otherwise stated, the content of this page is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License